Neither one of your first two sentences are true. Too much spin and labels in those statements.
More accurate statements:
One way to lower the debt is to raise taxes.
Another way is to lower government spending.
The meaning of conservative, moderate (or centrist), or liberal is quite muddy. It means different things to different people and changes offten.
Big/small government is another term that means differernt things to differernt people.
Throw out the labels in american politics and just view the man or woman. Most people are a mix of anyones meanings of those labels.
Bush is Re-elected as Kerry Concedes
Moderators: Jay2k1, DavidM, The_One
Last edited by Twigstir on 06-11-2004 03:57, edited 1 time in total.
giber wrote: My letter to Michael Moore, which could also apply to many here.
Dear Michael,
Over the past few years I certainly heard a lot from you. Now you're going to hear a little from me.
Yesterday your website showed only a picture of Bush made up of smaller pictures of soldiers killed in Iraq. Today, your website the same Bush picture but with the names now as well. A brief message says your "first" thoughts are for those who were KIA. (I personally think your first thoughts were more likely anger directed at GWB followed by disappointment at JFK, but I may be wrong.) But I couldn't even navigate your site from the "front door" to browse through all your thoughts and comments leading up to the election. I had to google your name and some keywords to get in.
Why is that? I guess you have nothing to say (not that I'm complaining about that!) right now and/or you're backpedaling on what you said just a few days ago. You could have posted a message saying something like congratulations to GWB (http://www.johnkerry.com/) or "the public has spoken, so let's all put the election behind us" but somehow I doubt you have it in you to say things like that. Venom and vitriol are more your speed.
But my main question is, what's your next step? Your "Slacker Uprising" failed, and you're likely too far out of the mainstream to be a viable political force. So what are you going to do with all your spare time and millions of dollars? Give it all to the poor? That would be a very noble thing to do, but somehow I doubt that it's going to happen.
Where do you go from here, Michael Moore?
How about Canada!
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp ... 1014a.html
"Moore also praised Canada for its progressive social and economic policies."
"We love the Canadians. We all aspire to be more Canada-like. We want to live to see a day where everyone has health care, where you don't have to pay off a student loan for 10 years. That's Canada," Moore said.
I'm not so sure we "all" aspire to be more Canada-like. But you apparently do. Go ahead and go there. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. There are thousands of people at our borders trying to get in and your vacancy will no doubt be filled rather quickly by someone eager to enjoy the fruits of American citizenship. The USA has long been the destination for millions of hopeful emigrants and the stream is showing no sign of slowing down. We'll somehow manage without you.
Something tells me that you, Michael Moore, don't have the guts to move to Canada and give up your American citizenship. And that just further solidifies my opinion that you're just a blowhard.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I doubt it.
Why don't you emigrate to Canada. Seriously. You won't have to be a part of big, bad America any more and you can make lots of films up there (I hear Vancouver is becoming Hollywood North). I bet the Film Board of Canada will even help fund some of your "documentaries". As a bonus, the exchange rate is favorable to the American dollar, somillion American equates to aboutOriginally posted by giber
My letter to Michael Moore, which could also apply to many here.
Dear Michael,
Over the past few years I certainly heard a lot from you. Now you're going to hear a little from me.
Yesterday your website showed only a picture of Bush made up of smaller pictures of soldiers killed in Iraq. Today, your website the same Bush picture but with the names now as well. A brief message says your "first" thoughts are for those who were KIA. (I personally think your first thoughts were more likely anger directed at GWB followed by disappointment at JFK, but I may be wrong.) But I couldn't even navigate your site from the "front door" to browse through all your thoughts and comments leading up to the election. I had to google your name and some keywords to get in.
Why is that? I guess you have nothing to say (not that I'm complaining about that!) right now and/or you're backpedaling on what you said just a few days ago. You could have posted a message saying something like congratulations to GWB (http://www.johnkerry.com/) or "the public has spoken, so let's all put the election behind us" but somehow I doubt you have it in you to say things like that. Venom and vitriol are more your speed.
But my main question is, what's your next step? Your "Slacker Uprising" failed, and you're likely too far out of the mainstream to be a viable political force. So what are you going to do with all your spare time and millions of dollars? Give it all to the poor? That would be a very noble thing to do, but somehow I doubt that it's going to happen.
Where do you go from here, Michael Moore?
How about Canada!
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp ... 1014a.html
"Moore also praised Canada for its progressive social and economic policies."
"We love the Canadians. We all aspire to be more Canada-like. We want to live to see a day where everyone has health care, where you don't have to pay off a student loan for 10 years. That's Canada," Moore said.
I'm not so sure we "all" aspire to be more Canada-like. But you apparently do. Go ahead and go there. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. There are thousands of people at our borders trying to get in and your vacancy will no doubt be filled rather quickly by someone eager to enjoy the fruits of American citizenship. The USA has long been the destination for millions of hopeful emigrants and the stream is showing no sign of slowing down. We'll somehow manage without you.
Something tells me that you, Michael Moore, don't have the guts to move to Canada and give up your American citizenship. And that just further solidifies my opinion that you're just a blowhard.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I doubt it.
Why don't you emigrate to Canada. Seriously. You won't have to be a part of big, bad America any more and you can make lots of films up there (I hear Vancouver is becoming Hollywood North). I bet the Film Board of Canada will even help fund some of your "documentaries". As a bonus, the exchange rate is favorable to the American dollar, so $1 million American equates to about $1.2 million Canadian (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/exchange.htm). Think of all the beer and brats that would buy!
So take your cameras that you set up hoping to spot voter supression that didn't happen (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections20 ... 56,00.html) and your pre-election accusations of "steal"ing votes in Florida (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/lates ... php?id=262) and head for the border. Please.
Some Canadians even have a preference for speaking French.
Sincerely,
GIB
P.S. Michael, here's a tip: Claim "refugee" status (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=6704292) and it will be easier to get a work permit in Canada. But please take Roseanne Barr, Janeane Garafalo, Rob Reiner, Ben Affleck, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand and the other Hollywood/entertainment millionaires who know what's best for America with you when you go. Another tip I have for you is to be polite to the Canadian authorities. They don't let just *anyone* in, you know.2 million Canadian (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/exchange.htm). Think of all the beer and brats that would buy!Originally posted by giber
My letter to Michael Moore, which could also apply to many here.
Dear Michael,
Over the past few years I certainly heard a lot from you. Now you're going to hear a little from me.
Yesterday your website showed only a picture of Bush made up of smaller pictures of soldiers killed in Iraq. Today, your website the same Bush picture but with the names now as well. A brief message says your "first" thoughts are for those who were KIA. (I personally think your first thoughts were more likely anger directed at GWB followed by disappointment at JFK, but I may be wrong.) But I couldn't even navigate your site from the "front door" to browse through all your thoughts and comments leading up to the election. I had to google your name and some keywords to get in.
Why is that? I guess you have nothing to say (not that I'm complaining about that!) right now and/or you're backpedaling on what you said just a few days ago. You could have posted a message saying something like congratulations to GWB (http://www.johnkerry.com/) or "the public has spoken, so let's all put the election behind us" but somehow I doubt you have it in you to say things like that. Venom and vitriol are more your speed.
But my main question is, what's your next step? Your "Slacker Uprising" failed, and you're likely too far out of the mainstream to be a viable political force. So what are you going to do with all your spare time and millions of dollars? Give it all to the poor? That would be a very noble thing to do, but somehow I doubt that it's going to happen.
Where do you go from here, Michael Moore?
How about Canada!
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp ... 1014a.html
"Moore also praised Canada for its progressive social and economic policies."
"We love the Canadians. We all aspire to be more Canada-like. We want to live to see a day where everyone has health care, where you don't have to pay off a student loan for 10 years. That's Canada," Moore said.
I'm not so sure we "all" aspire to be more Canada-like. But you apparently do. Go ahead and go there. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. There are thousands of people at our borders trying to get in and your vacancy will no doubt be filled rather quickly by someone eager to enjoy the fruits of American citizenship. The USA has long been the destination for millions of hopeful emigrants and the stream is showing no sign of slowing down. We'll somehow manage without you.
Something tells me that you, Michael Moore, don't have the guts to move to Canada and give up your American citizenship. And that just further solidifies my opinion that you're just a blowhard.
Maybe I'm wrong. But I doubt it.
Why don't you emigrate to Canada. Seriously. You won't have to be a part of big, bad America any more and you can make lots of films up there (I hear Vancouver is becoming Hollywood North). I bet the Film Board of Canada will even help fund some of your "documentaries". As a bonus, the exchange rate is favorable to the American dollar, so $1 million American equates to about $1.2 million Canadian (http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/exchange.htm). Think of all the beer and brats that would buy!
So take your cameras that you set up hoping to spot voter supression that didn't happen (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections20 ... 56,00.html) and your pre-election accusations of "steal"ing votes in Florida (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/lates ... php?id=262) and head for the border. Please.
Some Canadians even have a preference for speaking French.
Sincerely,
GIB
P.S. Michael, here's a tip: Claim "refugee" status (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=6704292) and it will be easier to get a work permit in Canada. But please take Roseanne Barr, Janeane Garafalo, Rob Reiner, Ben Affleck, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand and the other Hollywood/entertainment millionaires who know what's best for America with you when you go. Another tip I have for you is to be polite to the Canadian authorities. They don't let just *anyone* in, you know
So take your cameras that you set up hoping to spot voter supression that didn't happen (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections20 ... 56,00.html) and your pre-election accusations of "steal"ing votes in Florida (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/lates ... php?id=262) and head for the border. Please.
Some Canadians even have a preference for speaking French.
Sincerely,
GIB
P.S. Michael, here's a tip: Claim "refugee" status (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtm ... ID=6704292) and it will be easier to get a work permit in Canada. But please take Roseanne Barr, Janeane Garafalo, Rob Reiner, Ben Affleck, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand and the other Hollywood/entertainment millionaires who know what's best for America with you when you go. Another tip I have for you is to be polite to the Canadian authorities. They don't let just *anyone* in, you know
What a childish and stupid rant. "if you don't agree with me get out"
Lets turn this rant around.
My letter to anyone who advises that people with different opinions and belief than their own, should get out of America.
America is the land of free. Everyone is free to think and express their views. Freedom is what this country stand for. That's why people love our country and want to come hear. If you don't want people in your country to have different views than your own, then America, the land of the free, is not the country for you. "Don't let the door hit you on the way out". "There are thousands of people at our borders trying to get in and your vacancy will no doubt be filled rather quickly by someone eager to enjoy the fruits of American citizenship." The land of free, where everyone has the right to think and express their views. "The USA has long been the destination for millions of hopeful emigrants and the stream is showing no sign of slowing down. We'll somehow manage without you."
P.S. Pick your dictatorship carefully. Some of them kill people who hold different views.
How does that "if you don't agree with me, get out" rant sound now? Your wishing of many people here, Michael Moore, Roseanne Barr, Janeane Garafalo, Rob Reiner, Ben Affleck, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand and the other Hollywood/entertainment millionaires who know what's best for America, is not very American. Your right to express that view, is.
P.S. I'm not just picking on giber, others have made similar "if you don't agree with me, get out of my country" comments. Just wanted to make some points about such talk.
Last edited by Twigstir on 06-11-2004 05:29, edited 1 time in total.
Messy wrote: America is the land of the free? o_O
I really think it's not the only one, and I do think that if there could be only one, the Netherlands would come closer ;p
The US is hardly tolerant
We've legalised weed, euthanasia, prostitution, abortion and gay marriage
WE'RE FREERERER!1
The letter was addressed to Americans. An American growing up in our school systems would hear the term "the land of the free" often when studying American history. Our national anthem has the term "home of the free" in it.
I used the term "the land of the free" to hit home with Americans. Using a term Americans have heard many times before, provides a bigger punch to the point I was trying to get across to them.
There are plenty of free countries. America is certainly not the only one. The "the" was meant for Americans to drive a point. The true term would be "a land of the free".
As for America I would say this: America has the potential to be a great country. We have plenty of issue that need attention before we can truely be considered "great".
Dirt wrote: There have been serveral stupid posts on this forum, but that tops them all. I think people arguing from both sides can validate that.
Uhm... let's see...
Your Dumb President has built a good story to show to dumbs americans, "the Terrorism" to get votes...
Now, if you know just a bit of history, how do you call the 1973 Attack in Chile by USA Army?
Was not that a kind of terrorism? :S:noob:
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theberkin8or
- Senior Member
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 09-03-2003 20:41
ok i let this debate get away from me but i am going to try and respond. btw i plan on starting another thread becuase i think this one has gotten away from the real point in many cases
twig's assessment of why trickle-down doesn't work is right on. Even Bush's father called it voodoo-economics.
dirt war is always an attack on freedom if you really look at it, it is just a question of if it is legitimized or not. To kill is to take away the right to life, a freedom. So your argument really doesn’t hold a lot of weight.
Jon you need to step back and think about the way you are approaching this argument. You have criticized me and rightly so about using the same tactics that you are currently using. Having the ability to say anything you want about the system is part of our system. Even if you say that the system sucks it is still part you exercising your right to free speech. Certainly, hypothetically if you thought there was something wrong with the system you would want someone to say something instead of moving away and letting someone else deal with the problem
As for all this talk about the war on terror. It only takes 25-50 people to do horrible damage to our country. The world has 6 billion people we are simply not going to be able to hunt down and kill every group of 50 that exists. Now we can reduce their numbers. You would think certainly that would be an improvement, kill them so there are less of these people to hurt us. That kind of logic works in traditional war but in this “war” it is different. Killing Muslims alienates us from the rest of the Islamic world and angers many. Especially when innocences are killed. Recent polls are showing a 90 Disapproval rating for the USA in the Islamic world. These numbers are quite worse than they were before Iraq. Now you might ask why do we care? Well if you have a large percentage of a group that is spawning terrorist not liking you or in many cases down right hating you it is quite dangerous. If you look at Israel’s situation you have to question our tactics. They have pursued the same kill them all tactic, violent tactics we are currently trying… look how much it has gained them
Don’t blame Americans being stupid, blame the media. I truely believe, if we had access to real information I truly believe we would make much more informed decisions instead of voting for which ever candidates manages to label the other the best and make the other look worse. We need to remember that in democracy is about the issues not about the stuff the media is making important. Real information is critical to good decisions and therefore for democracy.
Btw anyone who thinks America is inherently good or that our actions are generaly good, needs to learn more history. The way to have good outcomes in the world is not just to have good intentions but to think through the implications. And it is certianly not to act only in our best interest becuase we know that blows up in our face as often as not.
Think about the world we would have now if we had taken a little more time to think about our support of Saddam , and our arming of Osama during the cold war.
twig's assessment of why trickle-down doesn't work is right on. Even Bush's father called it voodoo-economics.
dirt war is always an attack on freedom if you really look at it, it is just a question of if it is legitimized or not. To kill is to take away the right to life, a freedom. So your argument really doesn’t hold a lot of weight.
Jon you need to step back and think about the way you are approaching this argument. You have criticized me and rightly so about using the same tactics that you are currently using. Having the ability to say anything you want about the system is part of our system. Even if you say that the system sucks it is still part you exercising your right to free speech. Certainly, hypothetically if you thought there was something wrong with the system you would want someone to say something instead of moving away and letting someone else deal with the problem
As for all this talk about the war on terror. It only takes 25-50 people to do horrible damage to our country. The world has 6 billion people we are simply not going to be able to hunt down and kill every group of 50 that exists. Now we can reduce their numbers. You would think certainly that would be an improvement, kill them so there are less of these people to hurt us. That kind of logic works in traditional war but in this “war” it is different. Killing Muslims alienates us from the rest of the Islamic world and angers many. Especially when innocences are killed. Recent polls are showing a 90 Disapproval rating for the USA in the Islamic world. These numbers are quite worse than they were before Iraq. Now you might ask why do we care? Well if you have a large percentage of a group that is spawning terrorist not liking you or in many cases down right hating you it is quite dangerous. If you look at Israel’s situation you have to question our tactics. They have pursued the same kill them all tactic, violent tactics we are currently trying… look how much it has gained them
Don’t blame Americans being stupid, blame the media. I truely believe, if we had access to real information I truly believe we would make much more informed decisions instead of voting for which ever candidates manages to label the other the best and make the other look worse. We need to remember that in democracy is about the issues not about the stuff the media is making important. Real information is critical to good decisions and therefore for democracy.
Btw anyone who thinks America is inherently good or that our actions are generaly good, needs to learn more history. The way to have good outcomes in the world is not just to have good intentions but to think through the implications. And it is certianly not to act only in our best interest becuase we know that blows up in our face as often as not.
Think about the world we would have now if we had taken a little more time to think about our support of Saddam , and our arming of Osama during the cold war.
Last edited by theberkin8or on 07-11-2004 06:44, edited 1 time in total.
Twigstir wrote: What a childish and stupid rant. "if you don't agree with me get out"
Lets turn this rant around.
My letter to anyone who advises that people with different opinions and belief than their own, should get out of America.
America is the land of free. Everyone is free to think and express their views. Freedom is what this country stand for. That's why people love our country and want to come hear. If you don't want people in your country to have different views than your own, then America, the land of the free, is not the country for you. "Don't let the door hit you on the way out". "There are thousands of people at our borders trying to get in and your vacancy will no doubt be filled rather quickly by someone eager to enjoy the fruits of American citizenship." The land of free, where everyone has the right to think and express their views. "The USA has long been the destination for millions of hopeful emigrants and the stream is showing no sign of slowing down. We'll somehow manage without you."
P.S. Pick your dictatorship carefully. Some of them kill people who hold different views.
How does that "if you don't agree with me, get out" rant sound now? Your wishing of many people here, Michael Moore, Roseanne Barr, Janeane Garafalo, Rob Reiner, Ben Affleck, Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand and the other Hollywood/entertainment millionaires who know what's best for America, is not very American. Your right to express that view, is.
P.S. I'm not just picking on giber, others have made similar "if you don't agree with me, get out of my country" comments. Just wanted to make some points about such talk.
The above mentioned are the ones talking about leaving the country because of who was elected president. I'm just trying to help them out. By all means defend Moore if you wish, further proves that this discussion is pointless.
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theberkin8or
- Senior Member
- Posts: 794
- Joined: 09-03-2003 20:41
Twigstir wrote: The letter was addressed to Americans. An American growing up in our school systems would hear the term "the land of the free"...
etc..
...say this: America has the potential to be a great country. We have plenty of issue that need attention before we can truely be considered "great".
Sorry if I offended you dude
Didn't mean it seriously
hence the: "WE'RE FREERERER!1"
Although I had a point