2.4 testing info

Post by **DavidM** » 24-09-2005 17:47

uh imag please stop that. i'll update the beta over and over and yours will be out of date

well cirian, all say that at first. but when all who understood how to play now can't complain anymore, and i'll give you all 2 weeks to get used to it :>
really useless to listen to this sort of feedback atm, because i told everyone, it will be a new game, but people play it like the old version, hence not much is working well...defense wise mainly

anyway, get to understand the new required tactics $\o/$

Vulpes · Post by **Vulpes** » 24-09-2005 17:57

Why would you want to make a new game, though? The current game is very successful and very popular, and I absolutely adore it. It is so close to perfect, what makes you think it needs such radical changes?

It just seems to me that you're removing all of the skill from the game for no conceivable reason.

BL44T · Post by **BL44T** » 24-09-2005 17:59

[...]The current game is very successful and very popular[...]

I am sorry?

Vulpes · Post by **Vulpes** » 24-09-2005 18:04

I'd say it is; it's the highest rated mod on BeyondUnreal and has been for as long as I can remember.

pok · Post by **pok** » 24-09-2005 18:04

He's disappointed, as am I.

We have been looking forward to DB2.4 maybe as a revival to the community, to find a version which could possibly destroy our entire community was a bit devastating.

The question i ask though, why try to change a perfect game entirely? hell, rather then taking a step forward it seems asif you've demolished the entire game then taken two steps back. Why not just add forward spin or backspin? I just think you overdid it, and I'm really not happy about it aswell as the rest of our community.

Anyhow, best of luck with whatever it is you're going to do with deathball.

Cirian · Post by **Cirian** » 24-09-2005 18:07

DavidM wrote: uh imag please stop that. i'll update the beta over and over and yours will be out of date

well cirian, all say that at first. but when all who understood how to play now can't complain anymore, and i'll give you all 2 weeks to get used to it :>
really useless to listen to this sort of feedback atm, because i told everyone, it will be a new game, but people play it like the old version, hence not much is working well...defense wise mainly

anyway, get to understand the new required tactics $\o/$

Ah, you totally put your finger on it. I just don't understand this brave new game of yours. My rant is entirely based on my rapidly diminishing ego from sucking so much at 2.4.

Wait.

Actually it isn't. Infact, I don't really think it will hamper my performance at all. Our previous test suggested that my vastly improved girth in the game has made defending (my position) quite a bit easier. So no, that can't be it.

I'm not an old stick in the mud clinging desperately to my DB laurels, I am just trying to provide honest feedback on what I feel is possibly the worst DB prototype since I started playing. Look, I appreciate that you are attempting to reinvent the game to a degree, but you are undermining a lot of what made it fun in the beginning, and going overboard on your changes. I also know you hate this whole "feedback" nonsense from the resident windbags in the community, and I doubt I hold a particularly strong position, representing part of the Australian DB-League, but I am trying to help -- even if it comes off as rather ranty.

And as for the poster above me (+1), it's not very popular these days, I know that. I was around in the glory days of DB. But it's still *good*, something which the current beta is compromising in the name of being edgy and new. If popularity is the main issue, I don't think alienating (at least some) of your playerbase is going to really help. Make it more accessible, get rid of the "lol nubs xD" mentality that permeates games, and go on a marketing blitz.

Edit: Removed surprise "the"

Desaster · Post by **Desaster** » 24-09-2005 18:16

May you should check the download links, they just working with
Internet Explorer. Not with Firefox

Post by **The_One** » 24-09-2005 18:19

Change can be scary for some.

Cirian · Post by **Cirian** » 24-09-2005 18:30

The_One wrote: Change can be scary for some.

This is restating precisely what DavidM said, albeit in a somewhat terser form. Scroll up, and read all those pesky words I wrote. Note how they apply to your comment as well?

I have nothing against the change in general, but there are some serious balance concerns happening in this version, and the general reply from the establishment (with the exception of Imaginos') is "lol xD". Sorry guys, but if you want to change it, just be careful you don't turn it into a monstrosity.

Edit: Removed surprise "penix"

Catalyst · Post by **Catalyst** » 24-09-2005 18:54

I know I've been working with DavidM on 2.4, but I'm unsure of a lot of these changes as well - whilst I agree that there's room for experimentation, this effectively changes the core of what deathball is. For example boosting, whether people like it or not, is a bit part of the game, and is part of what defines DB as DB. The same with the style of keeping.

I don't feel that DB has the life cycle left to take in such big changes which basically make it not DB any more. It's nice to try out new things but I think that if this is forced onto people it'll just scatter the community.

Deathball, in its current incarnation (2.3) is the result of over 2 years' playing and testing to resolve little niggly problems. This means that there are things like volley delay which aren't necessarily logical and perhaps annoy people, but all of the big exploits (with the exception perhaps of the penix - but even that's not all powerful) are pretty much gone.

Basically, I _like_ 2.3, and like I said, whilst experimentation is good for the future of the genre, I don't think a mod for a game which is likely to become obsolete soon is the place to do it - it won't attract new players and it most likely will require as much time to balance as the current game is. Changing fundamentals now won't really help.

Okay so that's a bit ranty as well, but I did need to express it. Now I've seen exactly how big the changes are, my issues aren't with the changes themselves, but the time it takes to balance them - it's too much too late in terms of DB as a UT2004 mod.

Apologies if I said the same thing 50 times, I'm kinda tired

. Also, to DavidM - I do very much want to try experimenting with things and working on 2.4, but see my comments above.

Post by **The_One** » 24-09-2005 19:14

Cirian wrote: ...

Look, of course things are going to be a bit out of wack for a while. This is a big change and things will need to be altered. Give it time and I'm sure it will work out as I believe idea behind it is a good one.

Do you just have a problem with the implementation or the conecpt of it?

StRaFe · Post by **StRaFe** » 24-09-2005 20:34

Cirian your first post really killed me, some great words there. Done the aussie community proud.

I agree with it all btw but hey, lets give it some weeks. Agree with vulpes as well

I will post my comments in some weeks

Post by **DavidM** » 24-09-2005 23:32

agree with cata there...also told him via mail already.
the stuff i had in mind when i designed the new concept works the way it should...(still has to develop and balance a bit), im even sure the weak boost would work, but I don't want to take this step in deathball now, so boosting stays about the same.

i'll spend some days/weeks balancing the other new elements. just trust me....always worked out so far in the end, no matter how much you all moaned at me.
im like a keeper thats being attacked by motivated hangers....immune against that all $\o/$

EsorcismoNJD · Post by **EsorcismoNJD** » 25-09-2005 01:18

Dare I say I'm actually 95% looking forward to these changes. Just a few notes if I may:

- The latency changes all sound very sensible
- The boosting slow down makes sense not necessarily changing styles of defense, but offense as well hence I agree it should be toned down (offensive boosting for breakaways was becoming a little too common)
- Death of the penix doesn't really matter, no one used it in serious matches, it was merely a move for show
- The size of the nets sounds very exaggerated, not sure a 220% increase from the current size really is necessary given the latency changes... will the beta tested games prove otherwise? maybe
- Banana-volleys... this makes sense sort of but I don't believe they should be controllable (alt-fire or not)... it should depend on the angle you're hitting the ball... if you volley the ball and the point of force is on the side, naturally it'll spin in that direction
- Dribbling is a good idea, not sure of a practical use for it in game, but who knows? Does this mean that someone can dribble and then drive (volley) it or will the self-volley nerfing still be in effect?

All-in-all this game is turning more indoor soccer-like and is going to become a defense-favoring game from the looks of things. Personally, I like the general list and want to see it fully-implemented and tweaked along the way. I'll try it and see.

EDIT (After Playing):

Ok, this looks pretty good, but most of us were in agreement that the goals are way too big. 2x would probably fit the till perfectly. The ring bug exists where if a player gets the ball too fast from another player, the rings don't appear around them. Hidden ball trick anyone?

Other than that, "bug" still exists where a player can't dish off the ball. Ummm, other than that not bad at all. I did notice that the ball rolls, but very little... is this being worked on or was karma ball pretty much scrapped?

Zonk · Post by **Zonk** » 25-09-2005 04:00

OK, firstly i'd like to say that i often like change, and i can realise when something will just take a bit of getting used to.

But not in this case.

Let's take a look at the main 3 changes:
1) The goals are 3.2 times larger
2) The ball is about twice as fast
3) The boing/deflection radius has drastically increased

Now let's look at what each change will do to the game.

1) What does this do? It makes keeping 1000 times harder, that's what. It's often hard to get people (especially n00bs) to keep, because they find it too hard, and they keep getting scored against. With this new goals, which are as ridiculously oversized as the X-Box, it will just make people absolutely dread keeping, causing people to constantly leave keep when they spawn there, and cause even more problems.

Now you would think that it would be balanced by making it harder to score, but .....

2) ITS ABOUT 10 TIMES EASIER TO SHOOT GOALS AS WELL. What is great about DB2.3 is that the most successful plays are team plays. Cross volleys, and goals involving lots of passing. In this version, they will become a thing of the past. Who is gonna volley or pass a ball when you can shoot the ball at about 4 times the speed of light, causing it to go in no matter where you are?

Now, they actually did put in one thing to cancel out the ridiculous advantage to attackers...

3) The width of defenders is about half the width of the deathball court. With this change added, the game is no longer deathball. It's "Fat people jumping in front of balls going into an impossibly large goal, at a speed which will cause it to go in every singl time, taking approximately the length of the average human reaction time"

IN CONCLUSION:
- It is now much less of a team game.
- Keeping is now impossible and nobody will EVER wanna do it.
- Attacking is no longer about good shots into the corner, awesome cross volleys, etc. It's about getting open and shooting from absolutely anywhere on the court.

Removing the requirement of skill and teamwork is removing what makes DB so good.

1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 will just NOT work now. Anything more and it will just be a skill-less spam fest.

I'll try playing it a bit more to see if i can get used to it, but i can not see that happening.

I believe that unless we (Australians) like the non-beta version much better, we will be sticking to v2.3 for now. This version may suit Americans (sorry for stereotyping), but if it was installed on the Australian servers, the coffin would probably be buried, with 1000 nails locking it shut.