turning sprint off

Everything about Death Ball.

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DaJero

Post by DaJero »

DavidM wrote: sprinting makes the game much harder

you gotta think before you get the ball what you are going to do with it....and not only you, your teammates have to get in position much faster
all because you have no time to react later, the others sprint at you to tackle you....dead

but there are cool things you can do in the off with it, stuff that reminds me football (unlike the usual db goals)


Yup you're right about that, last night I really had to think of what to do before I caught the ball, otherwise you'll get tackled, or the defence is already positioned before you could even shoot at the goal.
-Camel-
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Post by -Camel- »

sprinting is seen as a sign that encourages egoin. therefore n00bs c it as way of gettin themselves seen if they can sprint round a few people. Without sprintin it encourages more passin cos there's no option to leg it how ever far wiv the ball. Thats my opinion neway

YoYo all u really need to do is ask whoevers server it is to make it like no sprint on saturdays so that the ones that r new can c db is better wivout it
Stulovesyou
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Post by Stulovesyou »

The following are my arguments that sprinting adds to the skill level of servers. I have played since the start.

They are presented here as well - http://www.ozforums.com/showthread.php? ... adid=60863
For reference - the current Australian Deathball league uses sprint. The version in 1.6 is perfect. Perfect.
1.7 is too much. It makes the game like permanent turbo mode. It's as if you've increased sprint to compensate for bigger maps. Don't do this. 1.6 perfect. 1.7 no good. It does not effect these Euro non-sprint leagues. It effect the Aus league. We all enjoy the balance of 1.6. It has been ruined in 1.7 leading to this debate.


Happy reading :)

The arguments presented below are based on user experience.
Yoyo - if you were involved in Deathball before sprint first started - then you will know that EVERYONE who thought themselves a superstar attacker - would permanently goalhang.

This made the game mega boring / stupid. These goalhangers would stay next to the penalty box and refuse to move back.

The only way you could counter them was to drop a defender all the way back with them. Ie p-box camp. This is very skill limiting both to the defender and attacker. It also invariably led to the goal hanger's side getting owned, as this player would contribute nothing to the game. Nothing.

The player would goal hang for the very simple reason - if no-one was back there gaurding them - and a ball was passed to them .... then no-one could chase them down and they'd get a free goal.

Goal hangers ruin the game. Simple.


When sprint was introduce the whole goal hanger scene disappeared virtually instantly (except for a few diehards ... cough dj...).

Reason is simple - A defender could easily zone off the goal hanger and play in front of them. Doing this enables the defender to intercept all incoming passes being looped over their head through quick manoeuvering ie sprinting.

The defender then has a role in the game. The can still contribute to the offence through getting the ball and passes back into attack. They can cover more area and have more fun.

The goal hanger is taken comletely out of the game because of sprinting. It just isn't a viable tactic - they do not get enough of their 'cheap 1vkeeper' opportunities. This player will now move back and HELP out his team - hence improving the quality of the game overall.

If you take out sprinting - then the defender cannot zone off - they are forced to play a man. As you say - it becomes bad defence to be anywhere but p-box camping.

And guess what - this is boring. People don't do it. They never defended before sprint came along. I still go into Euro servers (no sprint) and am amazed by two things.

No-one will defend.

There is always goal hangers.

Consider what these two facts do towards the skill level of the game. It decreases overall in every aspect. The game becomes not just boring because it is slower... but because the tactics involved become so lame.

Once sprinting came about - people started to realise cheap goal hanging tactics no longer worked. You'd get swamped before you got a shot off.

They started to realise they'd have to work the ball downfield through good positioning and 'teamwork'.
(note: teamwork is not lobbing a ball downfield and hoping a goal hanger can catch / score)

Defence also became more important in the face of these improved attacks. Teams realised that they needed to work together as a team to cover these better structured attacks. The attacks came faster with more structure.

Overall skills have improved tremendously since sprint came into our leagues.

If you want proof - go look through the demo's of the games from back in Jan or whenever the first 5v5 league started that were pre-sprint.
Goal hangers / lack of defence.

Attacks that come thick and fast with far more structure and variety far exceed the nonsense that gets thrown up in non- sprint standard attacks.

You may claim that sprint only leads to solo hero's.. which is just as bad as goal hangers...
I say - don't compare publics to clan matches. Solo's have no place in clan games - they 'never' score against a reasonable structured defence.

Teamwork is the key. The ability for an extra player to sprint into position and create another attack option is vital to scoring. Without sprint, all you've got is boost to get that player into attack.
You'll find inevitably that the player who get the ball in offence won't have as much support. He won't have as many options, and will be forced into trying for the shot himself. This was also a pre-sprint trait. I call it the bunny hop.
Player with ball moves not much slower than player without ball. They can keep out of range of the defender for longer, giving them more time to setup a standard shot. They will invariably make a four jump unhit attempt from potentially inside the penalty box. No keeper stops these.

With sprint - this does not and cannot happen against any decent keeper. The attacker will be gibbed as soon as they even think of charging. This forces the attacker to 'attempt other options'. Guess what... these require skill. Volleys, either to self or team-mate can defeat a sprinting defender.
The skill level of shots used to score has improved absolutely 1000% since the introduction of sprint. IT HAD TO.
Prior to sprint - there is only a set skill level of an attacker that can be achieved. You cannot exceed this level as there is no need to. Defence will not stop you on a normal shot, why bother trying anything else.
With sprint, the game comes alive. Shots need to be better. Keepers can save more. You need to improve.

Someone like Armagon has far exceeded the skill levels of anything shown pre-sprint.

The game HAS improved. Taking away a skillset such as sprint dumbs the game down. It is a backwards step.

HOWEVER... sprint in its current form is just silly.

DB1.6 sprint is perfect... we're used to it.

Petition davidm to bloomen fix it...

OR let's make an ausDB version and fix it ourselves.
:)

want more...?
further discussion below...

:p
Stulovesyou
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Post by Stulovesyou »

No Yoyo - you are claiming that you and zonk are more important than everyone else.
If you then change the settings - you are abusing your admin powers and should be stripped of them.


People should really learn how to read. I'm sorry if well-constructed and thought out arguments are offensive to you - but basically your 'one line' comebacks have no basis in reality.

=]ToK[=YoYo=]
um, that's why the ballcarrier is slightly slower, so that the ball carrier does not automatically get a free run if he's infront ofthe defence.
In 1.6 could you jump while sprinting? No.
In order to jump which gives the best possible shot at goal - you need to stop sprinting. Jumping to shoot will make your shot more deadly and accurate.
So when you turn off sprint, jump and begin to charge up you are open and vunerable to attack.
Non-sprint mode means you have perhaps a second or more before a defender can cover you.
With sprint - you have about a quarter of that time... if you have any at all.

Which is the more skillful shot? The one where you have 1 sec plus to setup a shot, and aim it perfectly under limited pressure...?
Or the one where you need to earn your shot?

Sprinting on means there is a far greater difference in speeds between the 'shooting' ball carrier and the defender. The attacker needs to be more skilled to pull off a normal shot.
Alternately - the will be forced to pass the ball to a team-mate in a better position. Here is a key. Positioning is teamwork. Getting a player open will increase your chances of scoring. You have forced the players to become more team orientated.
No sprint the ball carrier will have extra time to setup their own shot. They will not pass - they don't need to.

Blackstar
that's when "smart" ball carriers shoot the ball up to run faster then catch it outside the box or volley
This effect was called dribbling. It has been dismissed because it reduces the team element. There is no longer dribbling. A positive decision.
Guess what - now people pass, rather than get caught.
This is the ultimate goal. Teamwork - but is outside the sprint discussion.

Zonk.Plague
...hmm if the ball carrier is closer to the goal than the defender, then he deserves to get a 1 vs 1
Read my previous post. It is called 'goal hanging'. It was common before sprint. With sprint it now does not happen significantly. This is a VERY positive step.



=]ToK[=YoYo=]
but still sprint does not effect it at all, unless the ballcarrier happens (luck) to have less sprint than u. The only skill is conserving sprint, to make up for your lack of skill in defence.
This is an extremely subjective and narrow argument.
Name a pre-sprint defender with greater skill than cirian or myself.
A top defender is able to get into position far quicker. They don't need to p-box camp to defend. This is the only form of defence in non-sprint. You cannot zone - you cannot front. You are forced to stay in the p-box to defend against the goal hangers and to prevent the ball getting behind you.
No sprint means that if you do play a zone defence or front an opponent - the ball will be more likely to get behind you by the simple fact that you cannot cover as much ground. Any time the ball gets behind you - the goal hanger gets an undeserved free shot at goal. A non-sprint defender cannot let this happen. THey MUST stay behind the attacker and basically p-box camp.
As before - this is boring. No-one did it. No-one. They all went and joined the goal-hangers. The skill level of the game was pathetic in comparison the the structured game of today.
With sprint a compentent defender will not let the ball get behind them. They can zone off in front of goal hangers - cover more ground - and hold together the defensive structure. This is far more enjoyable.
You want proof of this - watch my demo vs tok on cube. Not one ball got through me - despite me being the only defender versus at times 2 or 3 attackers. You can cover more ground - cut in front of the pass and intercept more balls.
first two goals were boost assisted ie teamwork. Third was where you worked the ball down the field with three players.. ie teamwork.


In fact in the last two cube matches tok v plague - the ball got behind me 'once' from a non-boost. This was where I overplayed a pass and missed it. I'd run out of sprint and couldn't get back. Naturally I was punished for this by the attacker getting a goal. This is how it should be.
Sprint is a skill. You conserve it - you deploy it tactically. If you overuse it and run out - you may as well get back and camp the p-box as you cannot control up the field.
Once a defender goes back to p-box camping - it is inviting the opposition to waltz on up into attack.
With sprint you can prevent the opposition from even getting close to attacking. This is a far more skillful approach. FAR MORE.

The skill of the sprint enabled defender who can roam an entire half is FAR greater than a p-box camping non-sprint defender.

Players cannot get behind you and goal hang - they cannot get the ball if they try. They have to move back up the field to their team-mates and help out. They need to act as a team to work the ball down the field.
Teamwork is far greater and more necessary with sprint enabled.


MORAL OF THE STORY: If you want to turn sprint off - expect goal hangers. Expect the game to slow down. Expect the skill level to drop off. Expect the interest to drop off.
You have zero right to go against the majority wishes and impose your preference upon people simply because you have admin. NONE.


Learn to read. Learn to construct an argument. I haven't seen anything coming from you to back up your position other than "sprint is gh3y" and "I'm not listening to anyone else - I'm right".

If you want non-sprint - go to a euro server. Enjoy the goal hanging. Enjoy the lack of defence. Enjoy the waaahing and reduced skills. Be bored quickly.
:)
Stulovesyou
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Post by Stulovesyou »

I am also a defender btw if you didn't figure it out :p
Every time I've joined a non-sprint euro server with my 350 ping - I find that I am the only one who is playing defence.... with my 350 ping.

People don't do defend on non-sprint servers. They demand a boost and then try to attack.

If anyone wants a demo of a skilled defence using sprint - I can send you some demo's.

Cheers
Stu.
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Onge
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Post by Onge »

The majority want sprint? I don't think so.
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DavidM
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Post by DavidM »

about 10% like sprint, so we dont care too much about that
Stulovesyou
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Post by Stulovesyou »

In Aus - currently 70% vote it on.

It is on for our league.


As I said previously. If it does not effect all these European servers - then it should be NO PROBLEM to revert back to the 1.6 system of sprinting.

The majority of euro players won't give a damn either way... they don't use sprint... It doesn't effect them to change back to old sprint system.

BUT the majority of the Aus players who do use sprint will love you if you revert back to the prior perfectly balance 1.6 system.


Moral: The only players who want sprint... want 1.6 version back...
This should say something.

:)
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DavidM
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Post by DavidM »

I wanted the old sprint balance back too, but as stated the sprint code was totally rewritten, will be hard to get back there
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Armagon
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Post by Armagon »

Yeah that change to client side WAS a smart move, but I can see why it would be a little difficult to get it back to be exactly the same as it was before.
Stulovesyou
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Post by Stulovesyou »

Two simple steps.

- Reduce its time / stamina - that should just be a setting or parameter - hopefully not much programming.
- Make jumps reduce it. - possibly harder.... but still.

1st is most vital - otherwise its just like being perma on / turbo mode.

Ta for the reply.

:)
vF_Zonk
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Post by vF_Zonk »

we are having a test without sprint on our server some time next week

hopefully it will affect some people's opinions on sprint :)
YoYo789
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Post by YoYo789 »

we just did a short test (15 mins) without using sprint, and converted all the ppl on the server except one to wanting non-sprint, when only three ppl on the server were already non-sprint ppl, so ha!
Large Potato
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Post by Large Potato »

Reducing the amount of sprint to 50 - 75% of its current value is a necessary change imho. Unless you can get jumps draining it back in of course
vF_Zonk
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Post by vF_Zonk »

Large Potato wrote: Reducing the amount of sprint to 50 - 75% of its current value is a necessary change imho. Unless you can get jumps draining it back in of course


lol well i would say make it 1/3 AND make jump affect it o_O
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