Trouble

Post by **DavidM** » 14-02-2007 00:40

Hi2u
Telling you my point of view about the attempted community split. Also need to tell people that they've been lied to, and don't know what's wrong.
I know it's basically just a hand full of people who want this and the rest are left clueless but were sent the propaganda.

What's been told to all is "david cancels and blocks 5on5's all the time. go boycott #deathball"

1) I asked for 10 minutes to have a 5/10 match canceled in order to start vs3. I would never ever want to cancel a 7/10 or so. 5/10 is arguable, that's for sure. But after nothing happened for 10 minutes and Dread refused to cancel it, I kicked him. I hated to do that and I'm sorry about it. But I do not cancel or block 5on5's.

2) it indicates that this stuff happens all the time, which is just a lie

You also seem to think anything that everything bad that happens is all DavidM's evil deed. You know, all that's been done is based on the opinion of 2-4 OP's (those OPs that have been suggested by all of you). But I'm used to everyone overreacting big time to everything I do. If someone else does the same (as it happens all the time) nobody says a word.

Anyway: if problems with #deathball appear, just come talking to us.
We never really got any complaints so far (except for the ghost rampage in the beginning).
As far as I can tell we've been going to far and we'll try to loften it up and make things easier.
The reasons is simple. #dbpickup was totally unmoderated and everybody could do whatever they wanted. So we we did the opposite and exagerated a bit.

Looking at this community from outside....it's rather silly. If you blend it all it's just a bunch of childish crap and lots of pride.
You see certain groups that fight each other. They can't seem to think for themselves, they give away their opinions as they join a clan. No matter how pointless the argument is, they'll defend their clan mate.

And this battlefield we have for years makes you wonder...why can't they just think objective and work on getting along?
Well, the community split might increase some egos. "we showed him....haw haw"....pride, power, ego

hurray $\o/$ and all this for emotional reasons instead of talking about things and sleeping a night over it.
Anyway, 2 rooms doesn't help anyone....it just creates another struggle and fights.
2 groups being too proud to join the other....which makes a small community even smaller.

Let's try to calm down, discuss what's wrong, be fair with each other, tolerate more, sort out all trouble and play together for the fun of it without battles ingame or on IRC. It adds useless personal tension to the game too.

Oh, and try to drop the prejudice against me. People already hate me before they know me, as I've seen maaaaaaany times....which causes the anomaly to overreact to me. Also when I just say normal things you try to interpret it in the worst possible way, even though you know it wasn't meant that way at all.
And if you have a problem with me...just come talking in private, or send a mail or so....I'll be glad to get down to it in detail. I'll be objective....as I always am, but some refuse to see it.

ps: let's talk like grown ups and please avoid swear words and big emotions

Post by **The_One** » 14-02-2007 01:08

Obviously I've missed all this but ten minutes isn't very long to wait.

Why don't you try what the NA community do and have separate 3v3 and 5v5 channels?

Post by **DavidM** » 14-02-2007 01:12

This is a good idea to solve the 3on3 vs 5on5 conflicts.
But it's not part of the "drama community" problem

But yeah, why not.

Ker]v[et · Post by **Ker]v[et** » 14-02-2007 01:45

well i didnt saw what was going on, but the opportunity to make an own chan and the reason for one situation where given. But if this is a good idear is doubtfull..

(one thing you could have done is talk to ops.. yea ops! DavidM aint the only one..)

WARNING ! INCOMMING EMOTION

great game (greatest?)
+ small community
+ no success in getting popular
+ required skills for "fun" games
+ alot of beta versions with no end in sight

= hate*(frustration²)

no? dunno. it proboly makes less sence, but where comes all the hate 'n frustration in our community, cant remember we sticked all together for something once. (like stuff to get db popular)

WARNING ! END OF EMOTION

Catalyst · Post by **Catalyst** » 14-02-2007 02:06

This whole situation fascinates me

. The internet breeds drama because all you have to communicate with are words - and a small subset of actions, specifically the posting of those words or, if you were lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, the ability to prevent someone from accessing a service, such as banning someone from using these forums or a specific IRC channel or whatever.

When I was op in #dbpickup I attempted to run the place somewhat idealistically I guess, and I had my moments of power madness where I essentially did what I liked, but I do realise how bad that ends up in the end - people screaming about opers, others sucking up. It all ends up a big mess, because humans naturally tend to use the power they have. And since all you have to communicate with are words and those small actions, it becomes particularly exagerated and confrontational.

The best model I've found for running an IRC channel so far is that advocated by the freenode network, where admins weild their power as little as possible (and indeed spend as little time opped as possible). Whilst this clearly does not directly translate to a gaming network like Quakenet, as it's much more directly competative in nature and generally a lot more egotistical, I do believe they are [url=http://]good guidelines for anyone with responsiblity in a community[/url].

The basic message is this: don't use your power unless necessary. In a DB context, this means you should NOT get any advantage from being opped in a competative sense. This means that the powers should not be used to stop a pickup in progress, especially not to give an advantage to your clan (ie more practice). Wait your turn or ask politely - the more you weild the power the less likely someone is to let you start one. I reckon the basic thing the DB community is missing on both sides of the atlantic is respect on the part of both the admins and the non-admins. Just because you're an op doesn't give you the right to go around showing off (banning whomever you like, stopping pickups, etc). Of course no-one's perfect, but people need to learn from their mistakes. Essentially, what I'm trying to say is:

An admin is someone who is supposed to be part of and helping out the community, not looking down upon it, benevolently or otherwise.

Ker]v[et · Post by **Ker]v[et** » 14-02-2007 02:13

Catalyst wrote:
Of course no-one's perfect, but people need to learn from their mistakes.

thats one point that seems to -not- work at all here (as in our community). Its more the other way round sometimes "hey It worked once and noone did care... so i can do it again"

Post by **DavidM** » 14-02-2007 02:16

Op's not doing anything = I saw it not working. It's nothing that works for very long. Except if it's an exclusive very small group maybe.
We could be exclusive if we'd drop the personal conflicts.

Op's not having an advantage over others = yeah, that's why I'm sorry for having kicked him in this situation. But he acted bad too. Looking at it, I understand both sides, but IMO my role is smaller than people make it look like. It's only used as an excuse for something else.

BunnyS · Post by **BunnyS** » 14-02-2007 03:00

I'm not on anyone's side really, even though I am sure a lot of you think I am going to automatically be against David ... it's not the case. Regardless of what some of you might have seen in channel between me and some people, I'm still in both channels and will be until everyone decides what they want to do. I'm not hating David, just had disagreements that never got resolved :shrug:

I would also give my opinion on some of the things mentioned but I feel it would be a waste of time. I have spoken to ops about it before and have also attempted to resolve my own personally issues with some people. Most of those attempts failed so I gave up. All I can see happening from any of this is David will still see things his way, as will people who agree with him. As for the people who don't ... they probably never will.

Coming from a newish person this might make some of you think on both sides. All I ever wanted from db was a fun game to play with great people

<3 everyone in db even the people I insult know I am joking (like muttlee lol). I think if everyone could put pride and ego aside for a while and maybe think of something to stop the big divide between newbies and oldies things *might* get easier and the community might grow. This isn't aimed at one person or one 'side' there are people from both corners not helping the situation. Now you can all say what you like as I have gone past taking anything personally online heh ...

Suprano · Post by **Suprano** » 14-02-2007 04:02

Well if humans do that much mistakes all the time, why let them decide that part then ?

Create a bot that controlls the server, that checks if ppl join in time, taht bans/kicks that identifies and all that stuff.
ofc this bot would need to be not controllable by any op, at least no commands that could influence the bots decidion.

--Ano

Shinobi · Post by **Shinobi** » 14-02-2007 05:00

Do like what we do in NA to solve these kinda possible problems. Have 2 diff channels and the 5v5 takes always priority.

Adversary · Post by **Adversary** » 14-02-2007 12:42

thought I'd post a condensed version for the forums...

I don't think its so much about 'DavidM blocking 5v5s' - thats just bs. Its simply about trying to have fun. Different people have fun in different ways (and evidently a lot of people think 5v5's are fun :s)

I know David wud much rather start a 3vs than add into a 5v5 and wait to see if 2 more people wud add (doesn't happen so much). tbh... i don't blame him, cus 5v5's nearly ALWAYS suck...

You can next to never get fair teams, and too often people want to play with other people (for clans) etc. and so the teams are always lame

I asked if this new channel was an attempt to address this, had a look... and clearly atm... no is the answer. Saw a mixer running and the teams cud have been sorted much better (obviously a 1 sided match)

I've always protested with people about making fair teams, and evidently some people don't appriciate other peoples need for the fairest teams possible...

Obviously this ain't the only reason, but at the end of the day, people do just play the game for fun :\

*Therefore, something shud be attempted imo, because obviously people aren't happy with the way 5v5's are run atm...

(tbh it wud probably be better if people wud play on public servers more so they cud actually learn how to play 5v5's - its not impossible to get 10 people playing at all, just needs a good server and more #deathball'ers to join... but maybe talk about this another time)

Ker]v[et · Post by **Ker]v[et** » 14-02-2007 13:02

Suprano wrote:
Create a bot that controlls the server, that checks if ppl join in time, taht bans/kicks that identifies and all that stuff.
ofc this bot would need to be not controllable by any op, at least no commands that could influence the bots decidion.

--Ano

sorry but you lacking years of experience in matter of Pickupchannels and skill (i dont want to attack you here, but the more skill (especially radar) you have the more you see what happens) Thing is players can and did ruin games in other ways (leaving in game/standing around doin nothing/extrem egoing/waiting 10min+ before the game can start etc.) and i b et everyone has got pissed more than once from one of these.

Suprano · Post by **Suprano** » 14-02-2007 14:12

i see your arguments, thats right Kermet.

I vote for the 3v3 and 5v5 channel sepereation.

but regarding to the teams, it would be nice to have a rank system included inthe bot that sorts the teams by ranks.
The bot would need to get the information from the server or the server need to put that info somewhere where the bot can access it (like a website)

--Ano

Post by **DavidM** » 14-02-2007 14:39

Suprano, this would only make sense if there were countless tons of players IMO.

In case of 3on3 and 5on5 I would suggest to have both on the same channel with different commands.
adding to the 1st bot = !join
adding to the 2nd bot = !add
Also being able to add to both bots, and if one starts a match it automatically removes your from the other. Can all be worked out, no problem. Just wondering why we didn't have the idea earlier.

But all this isn't the point of this channel yet. I am willing to discuss it in detail when the trouble with all main characters in this drama is resolved....
Basically everyone shall mention what their problem is. In private preferable or here. But everybody thinks its the others, and not themselves.

Adversary, I saw you mailed me a big writeup. Didn't read it yet, but I'll go reply there in private then.

Titanium · Post by **Titanium** » 14-02-2007 14:41

tbh i agree with davidm. splitting the community again is the last thing we need imo.
i think david agrees that not all decisions were 'good' but that's nothing we couldn't work on in the future.

also i agree that these stupid prejudices should stop. surely everybody may have his personal opinion about this, but that shouldn't affect objectivity.

last but not least my suggested solution:
as mentioned b4, a separate 3v3 channel would be the best so that people won't again be forced to play a gametype they don't like in order to play a pickup.

sincerely yours
-tita

edit : or david's idea with the two different commands, though i think this could end up in a mess, spam etc.