The Official release of the DB Ownage Map Pack

DiStUrbeD · Post by **DiStUrbeD** » 16-08-2003 23:05

ZyCho wrote: And as i see it, it looks like half the comunity is trying to put DavidM down at any chance they get.

Is that so surprising?

When someone even mentions an idea to him, he shoots them down. Its sad.

Also, to any of the people that made the maps in the Ownage pack, dont listen to davidM, they are good maps. Remember, he is the one that fucked up half of the maps in the community... Tribun, Cube, SmallCube, LowCube (and probably more)

Twigstir · Post by **Twigstir** » 16-08-2003 23:43

Your answers to my post do not reflect what you actually do. Some of your answers are legit to certain situation that you have in your mind, however not to the situations I am referring to.

DavidM, my intention is not to flame you but to make you think. I did include a flame in the beginning to get you attention and point out a perceived problem you have. Please, think about my post(s) and go back and look at yours. It's hard to clear your mind, look and find your own faults, and then improve yourself. The easy way is to ignore, or retailiate. I hope you spend the time to reflect.

1.) Sometimes you do. However, you could improve. Here is one example: Look at how you handled the Physics volume problem that still exists. Had you said 1.) "I'll look into it" after many people mentioned the same problem. 2.) followed up with "Yes there is a problem, will be fixed in 1.8" and 3) done the same as one and two after 1.8 came out and the problem, while improved, still exists.

2.) Think deeper and review your posts. Here is one very mild example: Do you remember me asking you why in Cube, Cam9 had Track 1 and 2 at almost the same position? I was tiring to learn from a more experienced and knowledgeable mapper. Your reply was " so they don't move much". What do you think I learned from that.

3.) Your the lead designer of deathball. I am suggesting you spend more time in other areas. Some people very much would like your impute, opinions, and thoughts. For Example: When is the last time you made a substantial post in the map section? One that helps, encourages, and supports. One where you said I like this, I think this could be improved, I don't like this because, ect...

Review what you said about the map pack. If you spent more time with the mappers involved, would the maps be better, would the mappers be better, and would others be encouraged to try?

4.) Your opinions have influence. Your DavidM = deathball. I'm suggesting you could at times, use " in my opinion" to not slam the door. Think about about.

5.) DavidM, look at how you word some of your posts and think about how you could word them better. You can be honest and still support and encourage people. Example: "ass looking". Review that post. Some of it you did very well on. You took the opportunity to support and encourage people with that post. Yes that's in there. Had you worded the other part of that post better, that's what you would have done. Instead the impression was you insulted every mapper involved and anyone who enjoys those maps.

Check out my post on rotatorcube. I don't think that map will work. I could have worded my post so as to kick the guy in the balls. I did spent time on my post however. I tired to recognize his hard work, be honest about the map, leave the door open on it because it is only my opinion and I could be wrong, and encourage his continued efforts.

6.) DavidM, I finally saw a post from you that encouraged cube maps with slight variations. This is what you need to do and this is part of what I am talking about. I also think you should support the community that has different visions of deathball than your own. Why, it supports deathball. People have different likes and dislikes. If part of the community goes beyond what you enjoy playing, it's still a good thing for deathball and helps the part of the community you enjoy. The league helps the pubs and the pubs help the league.

Some People like deathball as sort of a sports style where the field/court ect.. is the same (more like soccer/football). Some people view deathball as a sports game on a battle field, where the different battle fields make the game fun. (CTF, Bombing Run) Both views are fine and help and support the other.

Go beyond the examples I've given. There are other example in all areas of deathball. This has nothing to do with me or my maps. It has so very little to do with the map pack.

Once again. Your the lead designer of deathball. Your posts have influence. They can help deathball grow or help keep it from doing so. I spent a lot of time on these post - to help you and deathball. I hope you will think about what I have said.

Twigstir · Post by **Twigstir** » 17-08-2003 00:00

To the others:

I am not tring to kick DavidM in the balls, I tring to kick him in the butt. He could do a better job. I hope he will in the future.

I don't dislike DavidM. I respect his work on deathball. If he improved himself and acted more professionally with his posts, I'd respect him even more.

As for my maps, I look forward to his comments both positive and negitive. I wish he would give them to me and I hope they will be in a way that I can learn from. DavidM has at time been very helpful to me. I wish myself and other would get more of this.

Armagon · Post by **Armagon** » 17-08-2003 00:27

*Me hugs Twigstir, then hugs DavidM.

"I'm sorry Dave."

vF_Zonk · Post by **vF_Zonk** » 17-08-2003 02:09

Twigstir wrote: 3.) Your the lead designer of deathball. I am suggesting you spend more time in other areas. Some people very much would like your impute, opinions, and thoughts. For Example: When is the last time you made a substantial post in the map section? One that helps, encourages, and supports. One where you said I like this, I think this could be improved, I don't like this because, ect...

Review what you said about the map pack. If you spent more time with the mappers involved, would the maps be better, would the mappers be better, and would others be encouraged to try?

yeah

it's pretty annoying continuously seeing stuff like "this map has really annoying gameplay, is very ugly, and overall just won't work"

this thread must be annoying to DavidM.......but.........you should start using constructive criticism more! or just not give your opinions on other peoples' work..........i dunno

EDIT: I know ur sick of hearing this.......but usually when i've seen u give suggestions on imrpovement, they were basically suggestions that would turn the map into DB-Cube ... and variation is GOOD

Post by **DavidM** » 17-08-2003 08:29

1.) Sometimes you do. However, you could improve. Here is one example: Look at how you handled the Physics volume problem that still exists. Had you said 1.) "I'll look into it" after many people mentioned the same problem. 2.) followed up with "Yes there is a problem, will be fixed in 1.8" and 3) done the same as one and two after 1.8 came out and the problem, while improved, still exists.

Am I the only person on that team?
This was up to Jero, he einsured me it's fixed, I trust him, pang!

2.) Think deeper and review your posts. Here is one very mild example: Do you remember me asking you why in Cube, Cam9 had Track 1 and 2 at almost the same position? I was tiring to learn from a more experienced and knowledgeable mapper. Your reply was " so they don't move much". What do you think I learned from that.

yap, sometimes when you catch me with questions while I'm working you cannot expect great answers, and sadly this will never change.
I wish there were other people to ask, but in the end I'm the only one who knows all about deathball :<

3.) Your the lead designer of deathball. I am suggesting you spend more time in other areas. Some people very much would like your impute, opinions, and thoughts. For Example: When is the last time you made a substantial post in the map section? One that helps, encourages, and supports. One where you said I like this, I think this could be improved, I don't like this because, ect...

Review what you said about the map pack. If you spent more time with the mappers involved, would the maps be better, would the mappers be better, and would others be encouraged to try?

Been doing that in the beginning, trying to share my mapping philosphy, but nobody cared, being ignored -> so i stopped that and ended up only pointing out the things I like and not like.

4.) Your opinions have influence. Your DavidM = deathball. I'm suggesting you could at times, use " in my opinion" to not slam the door. Think about about.

pointless

my post = my opinion
"Think about about."

5.) DavidM, look at how you word some of your posts and think about how you could word them better. You can be honest and still support and encourage people. Example: "ass looking". Review that post. Some of it you did very well on. You took the opportunity to support and encourage people with that post. Yes that's in there. Had you worded the other part of that post better, that's what you would have done. Instead the impression was you insulted every mapper involved and anyone who enjoys those maps.

Check out my post on rotatorcube. I don't think that map will work. I could have worded my post so as to kick the guy in the balls. I did spent time on my post however. I tired to recognize his hard work, be honest about the map, leave the door open on it because it is only my opinion and I could be wrong, and encourage his continued efforts.

Ok.

6.) DavidM, I finally saw a post from you that encouraged cube maps with slight variations. This is what you need to do and this is part of what I am talking about. I also think you should support the community that has different visions of deathball than your own. Why, it supports deathball. People have different likes and dislikes. If part of the community goes beyond what you enjoy playing, it's still a good thing for deathball and helps the part of the community you enjoy. The league helps the pubs and the pubs help the league.

Some People like deathball as sort of a sports style where the field/court ect.. is the same (more like soccer/football). Some people view deathball as a sports game on a battle field, where the different battle fields make the game fun. (CTF, Bombing Run) Both views are fine and help and support the other.

this is more about "how well do I know the game"
I can pretty much einsure you that any serious DB player will not like these experiments.
these maps are usually made by mappers who do not know yet how to play it

Once again. Your the lead designer of deathball. Your posts have influence. They can help deathball grow or help keep it from doing so. I spent a lot of time on these post - to help you and deathball. I hope you will think about what I have said.

Ok.

Stulovesyou · Post by **Stulovesyou** » 17-08-2003 08:40

I think the point that DavidM is clearly making, is that all of these maps are simply custom maps.
Thats it.

Q: Did the epic crew ever put McSwatzley into UT1? or one of the bonus packs?
It was clearly one of the best custom maps made. People loved it, or at least down here in Aus / NZ.

Ask the same question for your favourite custom Euro maps from UT1...

Q: Do you think any of the current custom UT2003 maps have the quality in map making as the UT2003 standard maps?
Will any custom maps make an appearance into the next incarnation UT2004?

The official maps within UT2004 look gorgeous. Absolute stunning use of the engines capabilties. All the works are in there, karma, static meshs, textures galore. All hand-crafted lovingly over months/ years by the epic et al crew.

These are 'todays' standard maps. They look great. They are professionally made.

Not one of the maps in this ownage pack are in any way professionally made. No offence to the authors, but they are simply custom maps. Thats it.

Can you imagine if Epic decided to grab the map of some random person who'd used the editor for the first time last week and say 'WOW', let's put that in UT2004 as our flagship map! Get the camera crews out boys, this mapper is our new poster boy!

The ownage map pack is ownage only in name. It is a group of custom maps. Some of them have already been on the Australian servers for awhile. They get limited play time as a distraction only from the main maps. Fun for a little while, but ultimately not quite as good.
They lack a certain something. That certain something may be found out with a few tweaks, a little updates, or maybe just mapper deciding not to use the phrase "that'll do" and moving on to the next thing.
This is how professional maps are made. They are not just a case of something thrown together that works and is put in a map-pack. They are lovingly crafted.

Can I ask how much love was put into any of these 'ownage maps'? If you love them so much, don't let them out on the streets to whore themselves until they look damn beautiful.
Simple fact of life.

Post by **DavidM** » 17-08-2003 08:44

Q: Did the epic crew ever put McSwatzley into UT1? or one of the bonus packs?
It was clearly one of the best custom maps made. People loved it, or at least down here in Aus / NZ.

They do not use stuff that has been released. Visually its as cheap as the original UT maps, that would not have been the problem.

Q: Do you think any of the current custom UT2003 maps have the quality in map making as the UT2003 standard maps?
Will any custom maps make an appearance into the next incarnation UT2004?

2k4 consits of custom maps only

The official maps within UT2004 look gorgeous. Absolute stunning use of the engines capabilties. All the works are in there, karma, static meshs, textures galore. All hand-crafted lovingly over months/ years by the epic et al crew.

there have been like 2 pics of maps, and these have not been very impressive, why do you think so?

Stulovesyou · Post by **Stulovesyou** » 17-08-2003 09:02

On that note... who realistically is going to buy UT2004?

Release Deathball as its own separate game....

Use the HL engine - I hear that's cheap

:p

Post by **DavidM** » 17-08-2003 09:04

I can pretty much einsure you that DB will not require 2k4, it will run on 2k3 and 2k4.
Since I will not buy it there will no 2k4 content in it \o

ZyCho · Post by **ZyCho** » 17-08-2003 10:07

Stulovesyou wrote: On that note... who realistically is going to buy UT2004?

I am, i think that there will be plenty of new stuff, for me to buy it. Though, it will depend on the price, for me UT2004 seems mostly like an add-on pack and not a new game, therefore i might not buy it if it's being sold as a fullpriced game (heard rumors that owners of UT2003 will get UT2k4 cheaper)

YoYo789 · Post by **YoYo789** » 17-08-2003 10:24

can I just say that I've never wanted DavidM to include any of the ownage maps in the actual deathball release. I just don't like it when he puts them down for "n00b mapping" when many people enjoy a map completely regardless of its looks, solely on gameplay .

Of course, the looks have to be at a certain level (remember the map with textures done in Paint? that was below my acceptable level) but as long as it is viewable without hurting my eyes then i'll play it. (which funnily enough i find i get eye-strain after looking at cube/smallcube for too long these days)

Armagon · Post by **Armagon** » 18-08-2003 19:53

DavidM, we're not asking you actually put it in the Deathball mod. We're asking you to support it as an optional download for many servers to make use of. I'm trying to give people some VARIETY in the range of maps that they are playing. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your maps, but people will eventually grow bored of playing the same maps over and over. Having several different maps will keep the official maps fresh, and they won't be as repetitive.

Armagon · Post by **Armagon** » 18-08-2003 19:53

EDIT: Oops, double posted.

Inphidel · Post by **Inphidel** » 19-08-2003 03:48

I wish I could figure out this mapping software, back in teh quake 1 days i wanted to make a mod similar to deathball, cept it was called bomb ball. and i made some spiffy maps for it.

bomb ball was like ultimate frisbee, if you caught the ball you couldn't move (unless you were ni the air maintaining your momentum) and you shot the ball like the grenade launcher in low gravity haha, but it was bomb ball ultimately cuz if you held the ball for 3 seconds you'd gib and the ball fell toy our feet so you had to pass or shoot relitivly fast.

when i first started playing deathball I thuoght the game engine was briliantly thought out and mapping wise you could make multiple styles of game play. like creating the goals so only if the ball passes through it in one dirrection will it score. thus the ablity to make basketball like hoops, multiple goals like one thats really small worth 3 points etc. giving the mappers more freedom so games become less of the same mind numbing repitition, and more interesting aspects the map makers create.

i've seen a few that had some good ideas. that space map with the kill zones in the middle was good

lets get some more like that.