Thots of teh n00blar (long)
Moderators: Jay2k1, DavidM, The_One
Thots of teh n00blar (long)
Greetings everyone!
Since i've been lurking these forums for a while, reading much of the "newbie debate" topics, and had just recently tried a couple rounds of DB myself, I figured I could toss out my $0.02 as a beginner myself.
First things first. If you want a community to grow, you've got to have three things. A game, some players, and a place for them to play. You've got the first two, but the third is severely lacking. I was quite suprised to hop online and only find three or four active servers on a sunday night! And whats worse, just looking at the server list reveals that maybe 40% of the servers out publicly displayed are passworded! Where's a newbie supposed to play? There really isn't much of a choice, unfortunatly. And to the untrained eye, it would appear that the DB community is either dead, or stagnant at a very low volume. 20 players? I've seen the most horridly unpopular old UT mods manage more than that on a weekend. So my guess is that everyone else is hiding out on their passworded, unlisted clan servers. Right? That there is a HUGE problem if you want to encourage growth. And I know most of you don't want to play with crappy players, or players who don't know how to pass, or volley, or goalkeep... but everyone has gotta start somewhere. Each and every one of you did. But where would you be if there was no one to play with? If no one wanted to play with you? Most of you would say "Fuck this game" right there on the spot and quit, and there wouldn't be anyone playing DB. So really, its in everyones best interest to open the doors just a little bit, and school some newbies in the art of DB. I'm not asking you to always play with newbies, or to only pub, etc. But would it really kill any of you to hop on a random pub once a week? And if you find things too easy, make it harder for yourself. Try playing without a radar, or without volleying off walls, or something. Train yourself to be less reliant on your usual tools, and see how much more of the game you can make instinct!
Next up... a lot of you need to learn some freakin manners. Yeah, i'm a newbie. I was even playing under the name "Newbee". And I still got bitched at for doing things I didn't know about, like shooting (and scoring) on a "VO" server. Oh wait, it wasn't a "VO" server - everyone just wanted to play VO and somehow I was expected to psychically glean this information from someone elses mind. A "Hey man, everyone plays volley only on this map." would have been nice. But instead I got a "WTF n00b VO!!". Now if I was a REAL newbie, I wouldn't have a clue what "VO" meant in the first place!
Yeah, I know newbies can be annoying. I've played with my fair share of newbs in more games and mods than I can count. But theres a really easy little tip for dealing with them. Its so simple, it might seem insane... but it's called patience. Contrary to popular beleifs, I've found that 90% of newbies are actually decent people. They're decent people who just don't know the rules, or haven't been shown the ropes yet. They aren't out to piss you off or ruin your gaming experience. It isn't their intention to screw up or look stupid or maybe not understand how things work. But - if you have a little bit of patience... most of the time you can actually explain things to them so they understand! Its amazing really. Instead of getting pissed off and hurling insults and slang at a newbie (which is the WORST thing you can do, since it only encourages said newbie to get angry as well and probably yell back at you), just take a second to explain things to them. And for the love of god, use PLAIN ENGLISH. Shouting "VO!" doesn't mean jack to most beginners. Just explain that, on this particular server or map, everyone has mutually agreed to only score goals by volleying the ball. And if they ask "Whats a volley?", you can tell them that its when you hit the ball out of the air with your hammer, instead of catching it. Carry on a brief conversation with them (it really doesn't take much time... honest!), and some amazing things might happen. Teh n00blar might actually start trying to play properly once someone has taken the time to explain the situation.
Try it sometime!
Third thing. About volleying. Now this is just my personal opinion... but why the hell is everyone obsessed with volleying? Its silly, really. Ever spectate a match? It looks more like pinball than deathball :p
Seriously though... is volleying the only way to play the game? It encompases 98% of all goals and attempts. Its really all anyone ever tries, because trying to shoot the ball is just pointless. Volleying is 5x faster, needs no charge up time, can be aimed precicely, and can be released instantly. Does no one else see that as a massive design flaw? If you had a game with two weapons, but one weapon was stronger, more accurate and fired faster... well then you'd have Deathball! Its little wonder why so many newbies are easilly confused by the game. Would you hand someone a baseball bat and expect them to bunt for the whole game?
I just think its a little bit weird is all. But like I said, its probably just my opinion. And anyways, from what I can tell, the VO instinct is far too deeply engrained in the community to even attempt changing it now. Its unfortunate, really.
Annyways... the next thing I wanted to talk about was.... uh.... *thinks*... oh, right. Maps!
Where are they all?
Don't tell me this mod has already gone the way of Tactical Ops! Its far too young and innocent to have reduced itself to the pathetic level of using only one or two maps! I know there has to be a handful of decent maps out there somewhere. You don't create a community and then not find someone whipping up new levels for it. But what have I played for the past week? Cube. Cube, cube, cube. Oh, and don't forget SmallCube! And LowCube!!
I don't mean this as an insult... but honestly, that is really... pathetic.
I don't know how so many of you can digest the same map over and over and over again. Thats the reason Tactical Ops got boring for me... playing the same freakin maps every single day. DB is like 10x worse. Enough with the Cube! I'm already sick of it and I just started playing!
Ah well. I guess its just another one of those things that no one (especially me) has the power to change.
But enough from me. I just wanted to share a couple of my thoughts with y'all, and see what happened. You've got a good game here, you really do. Congrats to the dev team for constructing such a unique experience. Its a lot of fun between frustrations, and i'm catching on bit by bit. (I had a really sweet volley goal tonight, but you probably don't want to hear about it )
The game is a lot of fun most of the time, and very addicting - I can see why its so popular. Though, like a lot of things... its good, but it could be better.
So I just wanted to try and do my part, with my $0.02.
GGA.
-MD
Since i've been lurking these forums for a while, reading much of the "newbie debate" topics, and had just recently tried a couple rounds of DB myself, I figured I could toss out my $0.02 as a beginner myself.
First things first. If you want a community to grow, you've got to have three things. A game, some players, and a place for them to play. You've got the first two, but the third is severely lacking. I was quite suprised to hop online and only find three or four active servers on a sunday night! And whats worse, just looking at the server list reveals that maybe 40% of the servers out publicly displayed are passworded! Where's a newbie supposed to play? There really isn't much of a choice, unfortunatly. And to the untrained eye, it would appear that the DB community is either dead, or stagnant at a very low volume. 20 players? I've seen the most horridly unpopular old UT mods manage more than that on a weekend. So my guess is that everyone else is hiding out on their passworded, unlisted clan servers. Right? That there is a HUGE problem if you want to encourage growth. And I know most of you don't want to play with crappy players, or players who don't know how to pass, or volley, or goalkeep... but everyone has gotta start somewhere. Each and every one of you did. But where would you be if there was no one to play with? If no one wanted to play with you? Most of you would say "Fuck this game" right there on the spot and quit, and there wouldn't be anyone playing DB. So really, its in everyones best interest to open the doors just a little bit, and school some newbies in the art of DB. I'm not asking you to always play with newbies, or to only pub, etc. But would it really kill any of you to hop on a random pub once a week? And if you find things too easy, make it harder for yourself. Try playing without a radar, or without volleying off walls, or something. Train yourself to be less reliant on your usual tools, and see how much more of the game you can make instinct!
Next up... a lot of you need to learn some freakin manners. Yeah, i'm a newbie. I was even playing under the name "Newbee". And I still got bitched at for doing things I didn't know about, like shooting (and scoring) on a "VO" server. Oh wait, it wasn't a "VO" server - everyone just wanted to play VO and somehow I was expected to psychically glean this information from someone elses mind. A "Hey man, everyone plays volley only on this map." would have been nice. But instead I got a "WTF n00b VO!!". Now if I was a REAL newbie, I wouldn't have a clue what "VO" meant in the first place!
Yeah, I know newbies can be annoying. I've played with my fair share of newbs in more games and mods than I can count. But theres a really easy little tip for dealing with them. Its so simple, it might seem insane... but it's called patience. Contrary to popular beleifs, I've found that 90% of newbies are actually decent people. They're decent people who just don't know the rules, or haven't been shown the ropes yet. They aren't out to piss you off or ruin your gaming experience. It isn't their intention to screw up or look stupid or maybe not understand how things work. But - if you have a little bit of patience... most of the time you can actually explain things to them so they understand! Its amazing really. Instead of getting pissed off and hurling insults and slang at a newbie (which is the WORST thing you can do, since it only encourages said newbie to get angry as well and probably yell back at you), just take a second to explain things to them. And for the love of god, use PLAIN ENGLISH. Shouting "VO!" doesn't mean jack to most beginners. Just explain that, on this particular server or map, everyone has mutually agreed to only score goals by volleying the ball. And if they ask "Whats a volley?", you can tell them that its when you hit the ball out of the air with your hammer, instead of catching it. Carry on a brief conversation with them (it really doesn't take much time... honest!), and some amazing things might happen. Teh n00blar might actually start trying to play properly once someone has taken the time to explain the situation.
Try it sometime!
Third thing. About volleying. Now this is just my personal opinion... but why the hell is everyone obsessed with volleying? Its silly, really. Ever spectate a match? It looks more like pinball than deathball :p
Seriously though... is volleying the only way to play the game? It encompases 98% of all goals and attempts. Its really all anyone ever tries, because trying to shoot the ball is just pointless. Volleying is 5x faster, needs no charge up time, can be aimed precicely, and can be released instantly. Does no one else see that as a massive design flaw? If you had a game with two weapons, but one weapon was stronger, more accurate and fired faster... well then you'd have Deathball! Its little wonder why so many newbies are easilly confused by the game. Would you hand someone a baseball bat and expect them to bunt for the whole game?
I just think its a little bit weird is all. But like I said, its probably just my opinion. And anyways, from what I can tell, the VO instinct is far too deeply engrained in the community to even attempt changing it now. Its unfortunate, really.
Annyways... the next thing I wanted to talk about was.... uh.... *thinks*... oh, right. Maps!
Where are they all?
Don't tell me this mod has already gone the way of Tactical Ops! Its far too young and innocent to have reduced itself to the pathetic level of using only one or two maps! I know there has to be a handful of decent maps out there somewhere. You don't create a community and then not find someone whipping up new levels for it. But what have I played for the past week? Cube. Cube, cube, cube. Oh, and don't forget SmallCube! And LowCube!!
I don't mean this as an insult... but honestly, that is really... pathetic.
I don't know how so many of you can digest the same map over and over and over again. Thats the reason Tactical Ops got boring for me... playing the same freakin maps every single day. DB is like 10x worse. Enough with the Cube! I'm already sick of it and I just started playing!
Ah well. I guess its just another one of those things that no one (especially me) has the power to change.
But enough from me. I just wanted to share a couple of my thoughts with y'all, and see what happened. You've got a good game here, you really do. Congrats to the dev team for constructing such a unique experience. Its a lot of fun between frustrations, and i'm catching on bit by bit. (I had a really sweet volley goal tonight, but you probably don't want to hear about it )
The game is a lot of fun most of the time, and very addicting - I can see why its so popular. Though, like a lot of things... its good, but it could be better.
So I just wanted to try and do my part, with my $0.02.
GGA.
-MD
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Being an advocate of newbie treatment myself, i pretty much agree with everything. Except the volley buisness. While i believe that volley's are over used to a horrible extent, thanks to 1.7 its easier to make a shot than to volley, it'll just take some time for the bulk of players to realise that.
Actually, as for hospitality, the Euro's are -very- good about it. Well from my experiences anyway, dunno if it's just me. Still kind of a bummer that one must play on euro server's to even get a freaking game though...
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Word
Being an advocate of newbie treatment myself, i pretty much agree with everything. Except the volley buisness. While i believe that volley's are over used to a horrible extent, thanks to 1.7 its easier to make a shot than to volley, it'll just take some time for the bulk of players to realise that.
Actually, as for hospitality, the Euro's are -very- good about it. Well from my experiences anyway, dunno if it's just me. Still kind of a bummer that one must play on euro server's to even get a freaking game though...
Last edited by Ze_Raik on 07-07-2003 06:42, edited 1 time in total.
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I agree on the volleying thing, VO really does suck! But now volley only is a server option so if people try and tell you to VO on a server where it's turned off then you can tell them where to stick it and just play the game normally
I don't know about the NA server population since I play bad enough when I have a decent ping so just stick to the euro servers. But apart from the odd few that spoil it, there are a decent bunch of players on them most of the time that won't constantly b!tch at those who are just learning. Unfortunatly, your point about the passworded servers is down to the contract that clans must agree to when they sign up for one. If we make the servers public then we get fined You can easily filter these out in the server browser but that still won't help if the remaining ones are empty.
I also get sick of constantly playing on Cube (and cubified other maps ). There used to be a few servers with mapvote installed so at least with the right crowd you can get a game of November in there occasionally. There does need to be some servers with a more varied maplist tho.
I don't know about the NA server population since I play bad enough when I have a decent ping so just stick to the euro servers. But apart from the odd few that spoil it, there are a decent bunch of players on them most of the time that won't constantly b!tch at those who are just learning. Unfortunatly, your point about the passworded servers is down to the contract that clans must agree to when they sign up for one. If we make the servers public then we get fined You can easily filter these out in the server browser but that still won't help if the remaining ones are empty.
I also get sick of constantly playing on Cube (and cubified other maps ). There used to be a few servers with mapvote installed so at least with the right crowd you can get a game of November in there occasionally. There does need to be some servers with a more varied maplist tho.
I like greenbaize...why?...cos theres no back wall to spam volley set-up's off...
- woohoo...an anti-volley-whore
I am a fan of volleying tbh...at the right time...and i like to see the volley used as a way to pass and cross the ball as aswell as score...but what i don't like is:
A: Volley only
B: People who tell u it's volley only when u've been on the server the last hour...and they joined 5 mins ago.
C: A game that's not volley only where people just spam the ball off the back wall everytime they get in the oppositions half and try and score with a volley
D: People who just insult n00bs rather than help them learn
E: Gameservers.net for only letting u guys have pw servers (there are other companies u know)
F: Mushy peas
- woohoo...an anti-volley-whore
I am a fan of volleying tbh...at the right time...and i like to see the volley used as a way to pass and cross the ball as aswell as score...but what i don't like is:
A: Volley only
B: People who tell u it's volley only when u've been on the server the last hour...and they joined 5 mins ago.
C: A game that's not volley only where people just spam the ball off the back wall everytime they get in the oppositions half and try and score with a volley
D: People who just insult n00bs rather than help them learn
E: Gameservers.net for only letting u guys have pw servers (there are other companies u know)
F: Mushy peas
yeah i agree volleys are too powerful - and they ARE over-used.
this is why i propose to reduce keeper volley latency to 0.15 seconds and make volley power in enemy goal ***THIRD*** (yes, thats right third ), a value of 1750 and to make the normal shot power 1750 as well. The purpose of volley should be to redirect the ball. Imho this will reduce the amount of volley shots...and for the volley only server option: keep values as is...
Alars
this is why i propose to reduce keeper volley latency to 0.15 seconds and make volley power in enemy goal ***THIRD*** (yes, thats right third ), a value of 1750 and to make the normal shot power 1750 as well. The purpose of volley should be to redirect the ball. Imho this will reduce the amount of volley shots...and for the volley only server option: keep values as is...
Alars
Last edited by Alars on 08-07-2003 03:04, edited 1 time in total.
Wat would be nice for the newbies of the mod, is a introductory video. It doesn't have to be hollywood style, but anything that show them the ropes before they start playing online would benefit them. If the bot support was better, I'm sure that the mod would be more popular. Usually, people who try new things, just go and play bots, rather than going online. MAYBE YOU GUYS CAN STATE THAT BOT SUPPORT SUCKS ON NEW RELEASES
btw, don't you like that might be a downfall for the unreal contest for the db mod?
btw, don't you like that might be a downfall for the unreal contest for the db mod?